Transcript: Hour One
Hackler/Breault Transcript (Hour 1)
Rick: I want to start our conversation by recapping what we’re here to do. What I’m curious about with this whole conversation is to explore why males . . .
men get into teaching elementary school. And what led me to that is just wondering about myself . . . well, we are such a minority and in the profession, and
for the men who do well in it especially – who experience some level of success by whatever measure – they have to do it by surviving in a primarily female environment. So, you go into it knowing that, statistically, probably 95 to 98% of your colleagues are going to be female. And, increasingly, maybe even your
principal is going to be female. And you’re going to go to school with almost all women if you know you’re going into elementary ed.
And so, to what extent does that experience shape the way you construct your gender identity or was it other things in your past that began to shape you so
you fit in better with that . . . if that makes sense. So are there things that condition us and lead us to feel comfortable in a primarily female environment in
what has become a primarily female profession. Uh . . . and yet succeed both with your colleague – fitting comfortably in that setting – and being successful
in what is usually considered a more nurturing, stereotypically female kind of profession.
So, just looking at the idea of how our identity in terms of gender is shaped by or determines our career choice and how we do and . . . . I think I probably
will stop because I’m just wandering now [both laughing].
Raine: No, I got a ton of ideas there.
Rick: So, anyway, a few things that came to mind when I started thinking about this a few years ago on my own was just . . . things like . . . when I grew up
my social circle was actually my younger sister and her friends. I had a lot of male friends but they lived farther from where I lived and my parents didn’t
really let me go there as an elementary child. I couldn’t go far distances to play with them or get chauffered everywhere. So I ended up by default playing
with my younger sister . . . four years younger than I am and some of her friends. And so I started to wonder well, to what extent did those interactions start to prepare me to work in a female environment? Did I start to hear the conversations and the priorities and the way girls think and . . . was that a factor? And
so, those kind of things . . . looking at some autobiographical factors and how my other interests and so on might have shaped some of that. And, rather than
just making it a singular, internal process, I thought it might be kind of interesting to hear somebody else who’s in the same situation. Someone who’s male,
who’s also experienced some success as a male elementary teacher and maybe draw each other out like that. So that’s my start.
Raine: I have plenty of feedback for that. I can answer why elementary. I can talk about how my gender, I think, how my identity was impacted by my
experiences at school, and why I teach the way I do now because of it. Is that kind of where we want to go?
Rick: Yeah. That sounds good.
Raine: I have lots of notes. So, when you started saying, “Why elementary?” “How did I find myself in the elementary situation?” I’m in the elementary
scene for a number of reasons. When I went to university – that third year I was telling you about when we teach . . . you get to observe kids through a
glass. It’s really quite funny. You go up in this observatory. The class is set up with this one-way glass. You know, it’s maybe a two-story room with a very
high ceiling. And the kids really don’t know this. It’s grade 1 or 2. And there’s this glass where you can go and observe and you basically just stand there
and you watch. Like the way, I think medical students do the same thing. So, you can picture that. So this is your first year where you’re still up there
viewing and you’re going to be in a classroom in a little while. It’s called your practicums . . . and your observing the kids.
So, I entered university thinking I was just going to be an artist. My dad was an artist and I just thought, “Oh, what a life this would be!” Not realizing that most
of us would be starving . . . so . . . So I took that first year elective just as something I thought might be interesting. “Oh, teaching, you know, my Dad’s been a teacher. I don’t think I’ll ever want to do what he’s done but let me check it out. So, I’m standing there with 15, 20 other students and my professor’s at the
end and we all have our logbooks . . . our notebooks . . . and we’re just told, “Go and watch and take some notes and see what you think. What are you
picking up on? What are you looking at? What are you seeing happen?” I was the only one standing there with . . . I couldn’t control my laughter. And I
was . . . I laughed the entire time hour and a half. And my professor came to me and said, you know, “I can’t wait to hear what’s going on.” And, he asked
me and I just said, “I can’t believe what these kids are doing! Did you see what this child just did? And I know why this child just did this.” And I just couldn’t
stop laughing. And I said, “This is just so entertaining and so fun to me and so humor filled. And I love the way the teacher’s responding to this. And he
said . . . he took me aside at the end of the course . . . and this really did change the way . . . he said, “You know, Raine, you’re in your first years of school
and you’re grades, your GPA isn’t high because you’ve obviously partied your first year.” But he said, “I know there’s a requirement of having a 3 point
something grade point average to get into this program. And I want you to know that I’m referring you, recommending you with a letter and my signature.
Because if I’ve ever seen anyone destined for the world of teaching, it’s you.” [Excursus 5 - A Subjective Warrant to Teach]
And I had admired this man, respected him. And what he said really wised me up and took me out of that mode of being lost and realizing maybe – like it or
not – there was a calling out there for me if I was picking up on some of the things that he was hoping kids would pick up on . . . students would pick up on.
So one of the reasons for sure was that I loved the energy of kids, especially on the elementary scene. I got to view the junior high and the high school as
well. But the energy in the elementary was just so fascinating to me. I guess ‘cause I felt like a kid. So that told me . . . that would be one of the reasons.
The second reason was . . . I think it’s a bit more powerful in the sense that my elementary school years for myself were both magical and “tragical” – magic
and tragic (laughing). I loved the teachers that were good – created a magical experience for me – and I loved it. And the teachers that weren’t good . . . it
became a very . . . .it was a devastating experience and I can tell you right now that most of those years with those teachers I spent crying. I can still vividly
remember putting my head down on my desk. Hiding my head with my arms around me . . . I know this position very well . . . crying with shame, crying
because I was, you know, belittled by a teacher. Crying because they would say . . . you know, when a teacher doesn’t like you, then all the kids don’t like
you. a powerful, powerful thing to learn as a kid. And it’s extremely powerful if you remember it as a teacher so you know not to do it yourself. And I know
most of the reasons I’m a teacher – the teacher I am today – is because I do a lot of the things my great teachers did and I refuse to do the things that my bad teachers did.
With those bad experiences and crying I knew I was a tender, soft-hearted person. A feminine trait . . . labeled at that time. So already the boys were starting
to see me as different. And the girls were drawn to me because I was sensitive and the boys pulled away because I was a crybaby and a sissy. And the more
the girls were attracted to me, the more I hung out with them. And pretty soon I started having conversations with the girls. I realized that girls are funny. And
there’s the humor that I love so much. And I was drawn to that. And I would come up out witty statements. The girls would laugh and the guys wouldn’t get it.
Maybe it’s ‘cause girls . . . I know they say that girls mature more than boys but the fact of the matter is the girls go my jokes, whether they were mature or
immature, the boys weren’t getting them. But the girls were. [Reflective Essay 3 - Girl/Friends not Girlfriends]
And so I remember very clearly walking around the schoolyard with girls almost all the time. I had a few guy friends that they also had the same traits that I
did. They were also friends with a lot of girls. They didn’t really understand the whole . . . gotta drive a truck and fit this whole . . . you know . . . this whole
description of what it means to be a Southern Albertan Canadian guy. And I remember in middle and high school even saying to girls . . . we would sit on the
steps where high school kids would sit and there was always a girl on each side of me and a couple behind me . . . and we would watch the guys pulling up
in their big four- wheel drive trucks and I would say to them, “Do I need that to define who I am?” I remember very frankly saying . . . and the girls laughing . . .
and I just said, “That just seems very idiotic to me that I have to have a truck that looks the same as everybody else’s truck.” You know, at that age level,
thinking that way, I knew that I was different.
You know, and I still grew up in construction. I still grew up as a farm boy. I pulled calves. I “A I’d”. I shoveled manure. I worked construction. I worked with the toughest of the toughest. But I still felt . . . and it doesn’t have anything to do with my sexuality even. I just knew even then that I was tune with a sensitive side. Whether we call that “the feminine” or not . . . you know . . . that’s up for argument. But I knew that was something I felt very comfortable and very safe with.
And as a teacher now I make sure that I never see a kid with their head on the desk crying. I refuse to see that happen. I also understand why some kids will
hang out with girls. But I also know that being a male in the elementary setting is very rare and it’s very much need. Because all of the boys that I teach are
attached to me . . . moreso than the girls. And I think it’s because . . . I’m not self-centered to think that it’s me and my personality . . . I just think that they
need a male role model – a positive one.
Rick: That reminded me of something that . . . back in our first conversation . . . I started thinking after you had said something kind of similar to that . . . and I
thought of my own model as an elementary teacher. So often the guys are hired ‘cause they’re the disciplinarian. You know, they’ll be better at discipline . . .
you know, put them with the 5th or 6th graders. That’s where they need more . . . where the guys need to see strong men. Some of that’s true but I wonder if
it’s not equally true that they start to see a male who can be all those things you just mentioned . . . that that’s not just as important. We need more men to
show that men can be compassionate, patient, sensitive, sad, tearful. Maybe that’s even the better reason that we need men in the classroom than because
they can whip those 5th grade boys into line or the boys will have some jock to relate to or something like that?
Raine: I agree with you. ‘Cause I think they have their whole lives to find those role models, and they’ll seek them out where they need them. They’ll find them
in their coaches or whatever. And I’ve always had that belief that if I feel like crying, then I’ll cry. I guess the benefit of all those years of shameful crying. You
know, teachers that I remember that they singled me out. I mean, I’m just being a baby about the whole thing. But now as an adult, when I go to a movie I
cry. And I feel so good about releasing . . . you know, a touching movie. And I’m with people who feel the same way. My male friends are as confident . . . and
I do say that that’s a confidence. That’s a courage . . . in knowing this. I know who I am and I’ll clap at the end of a movie and I teach my children the same
thing. I do.
Far be it . . . who are we to decide what is right or wrong to put in our classrooms outside of the curriculum. But I tell the kids that it’s okay to cry. And they see
me cry when we watch different movies through the year. We watch the Dr. King story. You know, these amazing stories that touch your soul. And they’ll see
me crying and they’ll ask me why. And I immediately tell them why and that there’s nothing to be ashamed of. And it’s amazing after that first time how much is learned. Because the next time it happens there’s no conversation and it’s amazing you can look over and see a few boys crying. And out in [name of school]
where my males grow up already knowing what a gun looks like and you understand what rape means, and all these things . . . and yet there they were crying
when I read some very powerful stories where I would cry by the end. The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein . . . I’m a marshmallow with that story. And they
would cry. They would ask why and even if they couldn’t completely comprehend it . . . they would understand that there was an emotional power to it.
I also tell them about the sexual stuff now . . . because now, after coming out . . . being comfortable with who I am . . . when children call each other a fag, you
know, or just a derogatory statement . . . I tell them immediately that there are people with alternative lifestyles everywhere, including their hip hop heroes,
and their basketball heroes. And I teach them that lesson right away because one of the people I dated was a football player who you would never know.
And, you know, I would never tell them who that person was but it’s so powerful when I tell them that some of your heroes and your idols have alternative
lifestyles. It’s not appropriate for you to use their sexuality in a negative way. And I’m very passionate about that. I’m not promoting but I’m clarifying you
can’t . . . you now, I say, “It’s just as bad as the ‘N’ word and all those things. And I put it into perspective . . . and I say if anything parents disagree with me
. . . at least understand that you can’t say that in my classroom. You can’t use that kind of language in my classroom. You can’t shout out anything like that.
That’s just where I’m coming from. And they respect that.
Rick: You mentioned something a little while ago that was . . . I was wondering with this whole issue about the confidence or strength, like to cry . . . being
around other men who have the confidence to do that . . . secure in doing that. And I wonder what role that might play in becoming a teacher. Because on a traditional college campus you have traditional male friends, typically, even though they might not be in class with you. And it would seem to me that it would
take a certain level of strength or confidence when you’re with your other macho friends who are going into business or law and whatever and their jocks . . .
and you say that, “I’m going to be a 1st grade teacher”. I’m not going to earn money – which defines men. My profession is not one that is highly respected –
which defines a man. You know, what you do defines you. So is there . . . what you do with that issue, I don’t know. I didn’t have that problem as much
because I went to a smaller religious institution that was primarily for people going into teaching or the ministry. So, almost every man on campus . . . my
friends were going to do the same thing I did. So I didn’t really confront that as an issue. And I don’t know . . . especially in the South here. I have fewer
males in my teacher ed. program than I did in the Midwest. So I didn’t know if that’s an issue for them or . . . I don’t know.
Raine: I think what you’re saying is very powerful because . . . even this morning with this new committee, this “scope and sequence” committee . . . I was
one of two male and there must have been fifty of us here. And I got there and I started thinking to myself. If these are the committees we have, then a huge
amount of our curriculum has been shaped by women. And . . . I don’t know how much of that has impacted the genders in our classrooms. But I know that
I’m always, you know, definitely the minority. Definitely. And that when I speak at these meetings people always turn because they hear the male voice. You
always get the heads turning. But when the women are speaking, you know, they don’t turn to see who’s that talking over there. And I think that my
perspective is unique in that sense.
I don’t think I was ever aware of the fact that I was . . . maybe it was because of the Canadian experience . . . I didn’t . . . I wasn’t ashamed . . . I didn’t think I
was unique going into the profession. I was aware that there wasn’t a lot of male teachers and that was told to me going through the program at the
university – “Oh, that’s great. We need more male teachers in the elementary environment.” I had a lot of great mentors who were males. My advisors were
males and they were grounded and their philosophies were excellent. And I still keep in touch with them today. And so I think I have that sort of confidence
behind me because they would say to me, “ You need to get in that classroom. You need to go teach and then you need to get out there teaching teachers.”
So to be told that in your first years of teaching really builds your self-esteem. And that gives you a lot of confidence.
I hung at university with the jocks. They were all on the teams so I knew I stood out because, you know, I had customized my jeans that I was wearing. And
then they actually got a kick out of it. They accepted me. I chose to hang out with that crowd in that section of the university where they would sit and hang
out. Because even though I was an artist, I didn’t really relate to the art crowd. Because they were way to eccentric for me, almost intentionally so. Whereas
jocks . . . if we’re going to talk groups . . . at least they seemed authentic because they were foolishly reckless but they were being themselves. If they said something stupid, they said it out of honesty. And, I liked that. It seemed fresh and real to me. And I liked the fact that they weren’t really judging me. They
let me sit with them. And I guess, in way, I was drawn to them because I was making up for all the isolation I had as an elementary kid . . . where I wasn’t the
jock. I couldn’t a lay-up. So I never made a basketball team. And I couldn’t, you know, all I could do was run. And so I think that made up for a lot.
And I think that when I’m teaching kids I look for those kids to see if there’s anyone who feels they don’t fit. And I make sure they know they do. The kids with
the bad hygiene, I make sure they instantly know . . . I make sure everyone around them knows they’re just as magnificent as those who have great hygiene.
And if I have to have a frank conversation with the class about it I will even. And it usually gets to that in 5th grade where the kids are saying, well, “That
person smells like urine.” Then you say, “Well, look, that’s because this is what’s happening in this person’s life and we need to look past that.” And I show
them everyday that I do. So I think a great deal of change in the way things are is just modeling it ourselves. Especially, the gender, like you said, being able
to cry in front of your kids.
Rick: I started to think, too, that maybe it’s not so much gender interactions that shape . . . like I said, my original thought was that I was around so many
women growing, I played with girls . . . that’s what helped me feel comfortable. But, hearing some of the things you say and I as started to think about . . . it
might . . . maybe the men who go into elementary teaching . . . it’s not so much that gender has been constructed in a different way as it has been just their
general identity . . . . In fact, the more I think about . . . you mentioned lots of forms of difference. Not only the athletic parts but the sensitivity . . . you know
some could be conceived as “female”, some are just different things.
I think of myself . . . rather than feminine characteristics I so almost more . . . geeky, child-like tendencies. I had no desire to grow up. I was still playing with
stuff in middle school that I never would have told my friends I was playing with – my little Matchbox cars or G.I. Joes . . .
Raine: Yep. Yep.
Rick: . . . my toy soldiers, or whatever I was doing. And I would find one or two friends that were still into that and we would just kind of secretly . . .
Raine: Oh yeah. [Both laughing]
Rick: Speaking of coming out . . . I never came “out” that way.
Raine: Um hmm. [laughing]
Rick: I would never have had the courage to say, “Oh yeah, I’m going home to play with my soldiers or my cars” when I was 8th grade. I think I finally forcibly
put those things aside in high school because I just go busy, not because I had the desire to play with my toys anymore.
Raine: Right.
Rick: So that kind of thing. I had strange tastes in music.
Raine: Yep.
Rick: I was listening to easy listening-type music that my parents listened to.
Raine: Yep.
Rick: I think I was more familiar with Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra and show tunes and movie soundtracks than I was with Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath or whoever would have been . . . In fact I was behind most . . . and I chose to do it. It wasn’t like my parents would let me. I just chose to keep listening to those
things. So the more I think about it maybe it was more just . . . like you said . . . when you laughed the whole time you were watching the kids. I could see that
in myself. I didn’t have that experience but I’m not one of people who always wanted to be a teacher. I had no intention . . . I never thought of teaching until
maybe second, third year of college. It never even crossed my mind . . . that I remember at least. But I do remember feeling comfortable with childlike . . . I
didn’t want to grow up. And this was going to be a good way
Raine: Yep.
Rick: . . . to grow up.
Raine: Yep.
Rick: And not in the sense that I always wanted to be their buddy and goof off with them and say, “Let’s hang out.”
Raine: Yeah. You knew the line.
Rick: Yeah. It’s the idea that there was some part of me that wouldn’t have to grow up because I could be energized by the kids, I could watch them, I could
be a little bit silly, I could make them laugh. And at least for those few hours each day, I could be sort of like a kid . . . I could still be in touch with the kid part
in me. You know, then there’s still part of me that doesn’t want to grow up. I still don’t want to admit I’m the age I am. So maybe it’s more that than gender.
Raine: I think what’s amazing to me is every time I talk with you is that . . . and it’s so refreshing . . . we have so much in common . . . is that our experiences
growing up and I’m, you know, and I ended up being [slight pause] gay and you’re not. [Both laughing]. And that’s really great for me . . . your lifestyle . . .
because it brings another dimension of normality into my own identity. And I’m selfish to say that but it makes me feel that, “Yeah, you know, what if all those
things were also not necessarily because I was gay.” ‘Cause I didn’t even know I was at that time. I just knew that I liked fun things. I liked to laugh. I loved
the youthfulness.
I remember my first five years of teaching. I mean . . . I saw a lot of what was wrong with public education before I got in the classroom and I knew from my experiences in high school I remember thinking, “This is the wrong way to teach. This is the wrong way to look at this and this is the wrong way to help kids.
We’re processing kids, we’re not teaching kids. So when I got in the classroom . . . Canada’s such a free environment for teaching you can do whatever you
want. The first thing I said was, “I’m making this culture about the kids.” So, there’s always this debate about respect and your hat on, your hat off kind of thing.
So, the good thing about my principals were that they were open-minded. So I told them the very first day I walked in the school was that I was going to be
allowing the boys in my room to wear their hats and that they would have to choose their hats properly according to their personalities and that they would
take their hats off at certain times such as singing, “Oh, Canada” and entering a restaurant, etcetera. The principals were in complete support of this.
If you walked into my classroom those first five years especially you would see me wearing a hat, and (one word unclear) clothes and all the boys in my room wearing hats and girls if they had hats they wanted to wear that day. And they were always sports teams at the time and they were very proud of it. But what
was interesting was that was when teachers started to come and watch my class and [one word unclear] what happened. A lot of . . . the word spread that
great things were happening in the classroom and they came to observe my classroom. And I realize now how amazing that was. At the time I didn’t think I
was doing anything extraordinary. I knew what I was doing. What was behind all that was I was trying to create a self-esteem in the kids and a sense of pride
and love for the classroom. They had to bring their own jersey, anything they loved, and we just plastered the walls in the classroom with everything the boys
loved and everything the girls loved. Their home. They were far more likely to own it and not abuse it. We painted the room, we painted the bath tub . . .
everything. The kids wore their hats.
So when the teachers came to ask about that . . . they’d always pick up on that right away. “Oh, you’re the teacher who teaches with his hat on.” And I’d say,
“Well, that’s great but that’s the first thing you’d know about me. Now stay for the day and I bet you you leave with a different perspective.” And they would.
They would say, “When we came in we thought you were one of the kids. You have that youthful look. But then when we watched you had it set up in a way
that the classroom can run itself whether you’re in the room or not.” And I’d say, “Exactly.” This was . . . you’d work until Christmas to get it to happen and
that’s what happened every year. The kids governed themselves. They created their rules . . . how to help each other. They directed their learning. All of that.
They wore their hats and they were the most respectful, loving kids you’d ever meet. Because I showed that respect . . . I believed and I believe it now . . .
it’s earned, not demanded.
And the old school folks that I went through demanded it and didn’t earn from me. And so I resented a great deal of my teachers because they demanded me
to respect them and gave me no reason to. They would just tell me . . . especially the male teachers . . . they thought if I intimidate you . . . back then, in those
days, the strap was legal . . . If I give you the strap you will respect me. And it backfired because I resented any of those kinds of teachers. I only respected
the teachers who earned my respect, who knew I existed and accepted me for who I was.
Rick: It’s interesting how you described with the hats . . . how we were both going towards the same thing in an entirely different direction. Because I . . . well,
I used to dress up pretty much for school. I just like it. I like wearing ties. I like the whole thing. And so often I’d wear a sport coat . . . and we didn’t have that requirement . . . you’d have to dress nice but the school didn’t have a policy about that. And I remembered at one point . . . I was teaching 5th grade at the
time . . . and the kids said, “Mr. Breault” or “Mr. B.” . . . Mr. B why do you always get so dressed up. I was right out of school so I was my early 20s and I tried
to dress kind of sharp and stylish, too. It wasn’t just teacher-y dress-up.
Raine: Right. Right. [Both laughing]
Rick: And I said, “No. No, I don’t have to. I just like it. I like putting stuff together. I like looking at the stuff in the morning and deciding. And then I respect the
job. You know, I think this is an important thing I do and I want you to see that I care enough to do this everyday. So I remember . . . .
[Tape stopped without our noticing it. I finished the story related how the girls then decided they wanted a “dress up” day every Friday. They began wearing their “Sunday” clothes and then some of the boys started wearing dress clothes and ties – all of their choosing. It didn’t last a long time but enough to make a point and have some fun]
[Also during the break in recording: We discussed the difficulty parents and peers had in constructing our gender identify. Since we were both young, single, somewhat attractive, well-dressed, sensitive men who enjoyed cultural activities, were never seen with a girlfriend (Rick by choice to keep his private live
separate) that we were probably gay. Rick had heard third hand “scuttlebutt” to that effect. On the other hand, there were also rumors that Rick was having
affairs with half the mothers in his class (also untrue) and several mothers and female teachers “fell in love” with Raine.]
Raine: So that’s interesting to see that people have the same parallels regardless.
Rick: Um hmm. And I think that . . . I don’t know where your first teaching was . . . but I know with mine . . . it was a pretty working class . . . kind of like the
fireman dad you were talking about . . . lots of police and lots of fireman. This particular area of Chicago, they had to live of Chicago if you had those jobs.
But it was . . . so they were living in the farthest area you could that was still white – ‘cause there was a lot of racism, too. So they technically lived in Chicago
but they wanted to get out where the white folks were.
Raine: Wow.
Rick: So, very blue collar . . . well, fireman, policeman, blue collar-kind of thing and lived up to a lot of the other stereotypes, too. So, I think when a lot of the
moms found a man who was well-educated, liked to talk . . . .
Raine: Um hmm. Oh yeah.
Rick: Could share things . . . you know . . .
Raine: Yes.
Rick: that’s one of those things that become . . . um . . . yeah, like you said, they either start to fall in love or think you’re gay and it’s safe. I don’t know.
Raine: Yeah. I think, looking back now at the reaction that everyone had to me when I came out ten years later. I think they all thought that. He’s safe. Because nobody acted with surprise. No one reacted with surprise. I actually almost wanted to write them back and say, You know, are you sure you know what I’m
saying. I’m not saying that I’m extremely happy. That’s not the kind of gay I’m talking about. But they understood and they had moved on. I think they had all
pretty much figured it out within the year that they knew me, you know, that I had their children. ‘Cause they made sure I had the next child and the next. I had
to teach full families of children. They would request my class. I had the largest class every year . . . every single year. And my principal would tell me that.
“We’ve got to do something about this parent requesting thing because everyone’s requesting you and we can’t put everyone in your room. It was an
incredible complement to me but at the same time I wanted to say to them, “I’m not doing anything extraordinary. I’m doing what all the things that might
teachers didn’t do . . . which I knew they needed to do
Rick: [laughing]
Raine: Right? for me . . . .when I was a kid. Truly. I really think that if we said in our teacher training courses, take a moment to sit down and right down all the
bad things that happened to you as a result of your teachers – not your peer group – what they could have done to protect you from those things. And now
let’s make sure you don’t do those things as an educator. I think that’s . . . I mean it’s one thing to say, “Do all the great things” but we’re not always so great
at picking all the great things. But we do know when something bad happens to us as kids. We feel it.
Rick: Maybe that’s connected to what we both said about hanging on to the child-like-ness in ourselves. When you’re still in touch with that as an adult maybe
you’re more sensitive to what the kids want and need? You’re still sort of that kid yourself. You haven’t put it away.
Raine: Yeah.
Rick: So you pick up on that quicker.
Raine: I had a colleague call me, Peter Pan. Actually many of them called me that after my sixth year of teaching. And I had colleague problems, too. I had a colleague who fell in love with me. I had to tell that I just was involved with someone else. Of course, that’s all I could come up with at the time. But, you know,
years later, she said to me, “You were always this Peter Pan.” And I said, “Maybe that’s what appealed to you and, you know, what made you fall in love with
me was just that sense of youthfulness.” And I wish I could have told her then, well look, I’m youthful because I’ve never had an intimate moment with
anyone. I’m still a virgin. Or I’m still naïve. I haven’t been burned by love. I haven’t been weathered by love, by betrayal or heartbreak. I really did, up until I
came out I looked like a teenager. I had not a wrinkle on my face. I never cried the tears that broken- hearted people cry when their true love leaves them . . .
and all the things that everyone goes through. I was exempt.
Rick: Hmm?
Raine: I mean, it didn’t happen until I was 32. And in one year I knew . . . I knew I aged. I really knew.
Rick: I wonder if that’s not a parallel then. Because I had one serious girlfriend right at the end of high school that went into college a little bit . . . as serious
as you can be at that age. But other than that I didn’t really date much, I didn’t . . . you know few girls that I went out with once or twice just to go to a movie
or a concert for the fun of it. And I wonder if that’s true that you maintain child-like connection when you haven’t had to confront all those other things as
much.
Raine: I was quite comfortable all those years not worrying about how somebody felt about me on that level. But when you fall in love with somebody you
suddenly give away a part of you that you didn’t know you could give away and you become dependent on the validation [several words unclear] everything. Suddenly you’re not in control. I realized suddenly that that’s one thing I could never control. I couldn’t make someone love me. I couldn’t make someone
faithful. You know, I couldn’t know what someone was thinking in that regard. Sometimes I wished that I’d never experienced it and other times I’m thankful
that I did. But I know that it made me the teacher I am today ‘cause I had nothing else to worry about or to indulge in outside of the professional. So it
consumed me.
Rick: Did that seem to translate then to needing those things from the kids? Or did it . . .
Raine: You know, I think about it now ‘cause now that . . . you know, after coming out and having a relationship with an adult versus, you know, this student,
friendly . . . you know how that innocent kind of love fills the void. Then I thought about it, you know, I was just saying to a friend . . . a colleague of mine on
the phone and I said, “You know, if I never find a partner in life, I would be quite happy to adopt two kids and that kind of love will very easily compensate.
Because I think now in my life it’s more about . . . I need a conduit to release all of this love that I have. I need two kids, one kid or a best friend. It doesn’t
matter as long as we have somewhere to put our love, our kindness. I’ve lived that way my whole life. I’ve done nothing but help people because it feels like
it’s . . . maybe it just feels right, that it’s filling a need in me. And I can’t bet at all that I’ll have somebody in my life as a partner. It’s very difficult. I have ten
percent of the population to choose from and then out of that 10%, two percent maybe are my flavor and my style and my, you know, kind of my compatibility.
So then I have to think, well, how else can I fulfill this need in me. Not to be loved ‘cause I’ve been loved and I love myself. But, to love somebody else.
Rick: I wonder if that’s a factor for men who choose teaching? ‘Cause it’s like . . . not an exact way that you were saying but, now that I think about it . . . I mean there’s . . . I certainly have a . . . as a typical as I am in some ways I’m still a typical guy with some aspects of commitment . . . superficial . . . okay, that’s
enough . . . .
Raine: Yeah, yeah. [laughing]
Rick: And I wonder if in some ways . . .like, you see people . . . hmm? . . . if having the kids, my students as that outlet was a pretty safe one because I could
just walk away from it. As committed as I was to them I didn’t have a big stake in them loving me back in the same way. Yeah, their affirmation was always a
really great thing and I’d much rather have them like me than not but you could still walk away at the end of the day and know that they’re home with their
parents. [quick laugh] That I could love them all I wanted, do all the stuff with them in class and all that, but ultimately they’ll be gone after a year. And you
hope that you had some lasting influence but if you didn’t it’s not like a spouse or some other meaningful partner . . . you’re really in it for the long term. You
know, that emotion is much more reciprocal. It has to be. And so maybe guys . . . it is a safe way to release some of your affection, your love, your devotion
. . . so you choose to work in that kind of setting because you can show all those things and really be out there but then pull back and . . . your lifetime
commitment is to teaching but not to any child or any group of children because they’ll be gone and so will you. You move on.
Raine: Right. Exactly.
Rick: So maybe in that way teaching can be a real male thing . . . lots of short term commitments . . .
Raine: Short term . . . perfect for the males [laughing]
Rick: Or if you’re in a departmentalized setting then you even have a serial monogamy going on.
Raine: Yeah [both laughing]
Rick: I’ll be with this class now they go away and next year they’re all gone. So maybe teaching is a more male thing than I realized.
Raine: I think that’s true. ‘Cause I have those connections in Africa and Thailand, Canada and here. You [one or two words unclear] each year. And also
our children grow up and leave. My sister’s going through that now. She’s said I’m loving absolutely every minute of every day with my four-year-old and
my 8- month old, because I know it’s not going to last forever. One day they will leave this house. And I guess every relationship evolves like that.
And I also know . . . and I have to speak to the stereotype, but it’s true. If there’s a stereotype, then there must be something going on. And if you look at
South Park [the animated socially satirical television show]. They have a character named Mr. Garrison, who is the gay elementary teacher. The male, gay elementary teacher. He’s in there because that’s . . . I believe it . . . I’ve met a ton of gay, male African-American teachers in the city. We can tell each other.
And I think that the elementary. . . the gay men who want to be teachers choose elementary because it feels safe for them.
Rick: Um hmm.
Raine: I loved junior high and high school and college, too. I loved it. I liked them all so I can’t say that’s why I chose elementary because it’s safe. It’s not
about safety for me. I’m teaching in a very dangerous urban school.
Rick: Right.
Raine: Where people leave in their second month of teaching. So that’s not an issue for me. I love that. I love that the kids have a vast amount of needs. And
I love being able to help them and feel like I am. For me, I think it’s that. But I do know that a lot of men that are gay go there because it’s safe. They feel
safe around their women colleagues. They feel safe to be themselves like that. And they feel safe around their kids because they know that the little ones
are not as quick to pick up on it and call them on it or hurt their feelings for whatever reasons. I was never called out, not even by the middle school and high
school kids. And the girls had crushes on me and no one ever thought. And even now, kids see that I don’t have a girlfriend but they just imagine that there
is one. They just don’t want to see me in any other role. And I guess in ten years, just like in Canada, when if they discover that I am, perhaps that will give
them a new . . . they’ll have to revisit their paradigms about what being gay is. And they’ll say, that “Wait, Mr. Hackler was gay and he wasn’t all of these
things that I have been raised . . . and the media has taught me to laugh at and ridicule . . . you know, the “Will and Grace” [referring to recent sitcom about
a gay man living with a straight female roommate] kind of stuff. You know, that it isn’t all that.
A football player came out about eight years ago maybe, maybe it was a little later than that. And I was really excited about it. He was Hawaiian . . . Hawaiian descent and I read the article about a restaurant with his partner. And I thought, boy, I wish more people in those kind of roles -- the athletes that kids love,
the hip hop artists – would do that. Because it would give all these kids who are gay -- and they know in elementary that they are -- it would give them that confidence. At least the knowingness that they’re okay. They’re not freaks. That they’re going to make it.
Rick: And I think the power of even one role model can do that. ‘Cause . . . now . . . clearly my situation isn’t the same as that but I remember . . . I jotted
down a name as you were talking . . . something you said about the mentors you had. And I remembered I had the husband of one of my cousins . . . my
family’s pretty close . . . so I spent a lot of time with him. But he was an elementary school teacher. I had met him just when I was started becoming a runner,
too in high school in cross-country and track and he was also a really good runner. I was . . . whatever . . . 14 or 15, whatever you are when you start high
school . . . maybe 14. And as I got older and saw that he was an elementary teacher . . . he was also really bright, just in every sense of the word a very
intelligent person – which was a long way from most of the stereotypes of elementary teachers.
Raine: Yeah.
Rick: A real intellectual, a good athlete. And I remember him being . . . not so much a role model of how to teach but the idea that it made it okay . . . that if
Bill was pretty cool, a good sense of humor, very intelligent, a good athlete and I respected him . . . then that was almost enough to me to think, “Oh, I can be intelligent, an athlete . . . whatever . . . and be a teacher. And I’d say he’s the only model . . . I didn’t have any male teachers in elementary school myself or
anything like that. So I could picture then . . . like you said . . . that maybe even more extreme in that sense of a gay man . . . .
Raine: Right.
Rick: Wow this really strong, powerful, famous jock . . . but, yet, most of them are too afraid, for whatever reason, to do that.
Raine: Fear is a big part of it. You’re right.
Rick: You just need one person to say it’s okay.
Raine: Yeah.
Rick: You’re not alone. And for me it was that one guy . . . well, an elementary teacher might be okay. You can still be all those other things you want and be
a teacher. And so you can picture with gay identity or even just kids who are different in some way.
Raine: Yeah . . . who just don’t fit that norm. I agree with you. I think that having that confidence as a kid . . . it really impacts you when you grew up. Before
I knew my identity sexually I knew that I was different mentally. I just knew I didn’t believe in half of the ways we were teaching. I didn’t believe . . . I didn’t
believe in the one-size-fits-all kind of philosophy. And then I [several words were unclear]. You know I didn’t agree with the standardized test and it came in
just as were exiting, so we were the pilot group. So we rebelled and made sure we got zeroes on all the tests. We didn’t agree with it at the time. We said, if
you want to know who we are, come ask our teacher. Come and see what we do with our projects. You know we just believed that.
And I think that’s driven a lot of what I do . . . how I teach even now. You really want to know how the kids in your state and your country are doing then come
and ask their teachers. Come and sit down and have a conversation. If you really, truly care, and you really don’t want to leave a child behind, come and
meet each child. Because you will leave them behind if you just talk about numbers. Because you’ll never know who the kids are and where they’re at if you
look at them as numbers. You will never know.
How does the world understand what my kids deal with in urban . . . you know, where one of my students had to come one day telling me that her mom
wanted her to, you know, urinate in a cup for her mom to pass a drug test. I mean that’s just [several words unclear because of background noise] that her
brother was, you know, selling cocaine and she had to hide in her bedroom with the door locked because his friends wanted to rape her. She’s 11. How does
the state know that story from a standardized test score? Does that really matter to that little girl when she’s staying in my room every day ‘til 7:00 ‘cause she
doesn’t want to go home. Until we finally find out why. And she knows that she could be beaten to death if she tells me. And yet she broke down and told me.
And then we saved her. We pulled her out of that house and then we had to do . . . one of those things we had to do. She would crawl out the window
because her brother and his friends would break the door down. How does “No Child Left Behind” address that?
You know . . . I could feel so [a few words unclear]. . . I could stay away from those conversations. We don’t want to know about that. We don’t want to know
that’s happening. The fact of the matter is if we really care about kids we’re going to care about that happening. I don’t care what’s happening in Buckhead
[a very affluent area of Atlanta], ‘cause Buckhead’s going to be fine. They’re going to be absolutely fine. They might have to worry about an Armani versus
a Gucci purse or set of shoes. But my kids are worried about life or death! What an entirely different curriculum.
Rick: Yep. Yet the higher pressure is put on them in some ways. As if they even care about that. Why on earth would you care about your test score?
Raine: Going back to being a male in the elementary school . . . I do know that I am very cognizant of how I act in front of the guys. I make sure that I show
them that men can be also very caring, understanding and quiet . . . peaceful people. Because a lot of the men . . . role models they have are very violent, aggressive, no-nonsense kind of . . . you know . . . and I’ve witnessed . . . They will not hesitate to beat them and discipline them in a physical sense for the
smallest thing . . . and shout at them. And they see all that anger and aggression and I want them to see that men can also be very peaceful, patient beings.
They can be quiet and giving. So when those boys come in the room everyday to get a piece of food off my desk and to share with me their morning, that’s
exactly how I come to them. I speak very softly and very calmly . . . “How are you? What’s happening?” “How was your night?” “How do you feel today?”
And they just open up to you. And I want them to see that that can be a consistent thing. I don’t know how the chain will ever be broken. I just that I can try
my best to provide a model. Maybe when they’re adults they can dig into their memories and remember that. I don’t know if they will.
I don’t know even if who I am is based on a model I had in elementary school or if it’s my father. I never saw him cry so it can’t be truly that. ‘Cause I didn’t
see him cry. He wasn’t a really tough, aggressive . . . he was a Gandhi. I always describe my dad as a Gandhi type of man . . . a very quiet, humble man and
all the kids loved him. And he never really shouted at us growing up. And I didn’t see him cry but I also didn’t see him as being a cold man at all. He was an
artist . . . but he is a scientist as well. I don’t know where the model came from. I don’t know why I am really who I am.
Rick: Yeah. There are going to be dimensions of this that you just can’t tease out. Yeah. Some of it I can picture that . . . I didn’t grow up with a lot of the
male stuff because my dad was not a big sports fan. I literally had never seen a football game. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a whole football game. He liked
baseball. We did watch baseball, the Cubs and all. But . . . so there wasn’t that kind of stuff and . . . he honored the . . . like, he would go to the symphony
concerts with us and he went to church with us. So a lot of those “un-male” things, he did. So in that way . . . some of those things would come from him as
a model. He was actually the more unconditional love person than my mom was. You know, he wasn’t the macho dad driving you to be successful. If I
didn’t succeed at things he would be, “Oh, that’s okay if you didn’t . . .”. Where my mom was more the conditional love person. So I guess some of that I’d
have to attribute . . . whatever atypical male traits that might have led to my elementary choice as being acceptable could have come . . . there’s never . . .
both of my parents were proud of that decision. There was absolutely no . . . “Fine, hey, that’s a cool thing to be”.
Raine: Mine, too.
Rick: Making money was not a big . . . money was just not an issue for our family. If I made lots of money that would be fine but whatever I wanted to do
would have been okay. I wasn’t under those typically male kind of pressures. But yet, there’s plenty that aren’t my Dad or my Mom, so I don’t know. I think a
lot of it I’d have to say was luck . . . in that I had friends, male friends, who I could be geeky with . . . you know, I didn’t have to fall into a lot of the stuff. Yet,
I was also a good enough jock . . .
Raine: Okay, see, that’s where I’m different.
Rick: . . . that I fit in with . . . I was a good runner in high school which wasn’t football or basketball but at least . . .
Raine: You were still an athlete.
Rick: Yeah. I could go in those crowds . . . even though I didn’t like that group as much . . . we didn’t party together or any of that kind of thing but it was
okay. I had my in with them. So in that way . . . plus it gave me a lot of outs that I didn’t have to . . . I wasn’t as tempted to . . . I could say no to drugs and
that easier. Because, “Oh, well, Rick’s a jock.” And that was pretty good. I could say, “Oh, well, I got a race tomorrow” and so lots of easy outs for peer
pressure that some guys weren’t as lucky to have. You know that, peer pressure was a bigger issue.
Raine: I remember that. I remember that pressure. And for me I didn’t have that outlet so I remember going, “Oh God just get me through this. It won’t
matter at university. It’s too big. No one will even notice you there.” But I remember thinking that over and over again. Get me through this. Just get through
it and then I’ll be free. And it was. It’s exactly that at university. I was not . . . I didn’t matter and I was quite happy about that. Maybe I . . . maybe when I got
that job in a school . . . maybe I said, “You know, now let me repair.” Metaphorically, let me revisit who I was as a kid and let me repair all that in these kids.
And maybe, you know, in an extended way I’m repairing myself. Sewing up some wounds that never quite healed. You never know. If that’s the case then
I should’ve stopped doing that years ago.
Going back to what you were saying . . . I think it’s also just that conduit of being able to release the passion and love that we have. For being alive. And for
being a human being. Which, you know, we have that ability. Maybe ‘cause I never had an opportunity for 32 years . . . you know, everything just feels right.
Kids are so easy to love. I am drawn to the worst kids in our school ‘cause they’re so easy to impact and they’re angels when they’re with me. And I know why. Because they respond to good . . . good, unconditional validation . . . and they see it. They see it for what it is. They know when you’re truly listening to them
and when you’re not. When you bring a coat and you give it to them, they remember and they wear it. “This person cares about me.”
Rick: Yeah, I try to tell that . . . the students I have don’t quite get the whole idea that you’re creating a . . . a world for them to live in. I say that’s more
important than the stuff you teach.
Raine: Wow. Yeah.
Rick: I want them to deliberately create that world because you’re going to be with them more than their parents . . . in a lot of the kid’s cases . . . and if you
think that they’re going to leave you after that much not being different people, you’re wrong. So what kind of people do you want them to be? But, listening
and knowing that you’ve been listened to . . . I try to say what a difference it makes when they come and say, “Oh yeah, Mr. B.” “Oh yeah, good ahead, it’s
right over there” [pointing without looking up from the desk] Or if I say “What?” You know, turn around, put the pencil down and look at them. That one thing! Especially for kids who don’t get it at home. For some, eh, it won’t make a difference. But the ones that
Raine: Yep.
Rick: . . . “He actually turned around, looked at me” . . .
Raine: Yep.
Rick: . . . “He stopped what he was doing. What he’s doing wasn’t important or at least I was more important at that moment. I was more important than what
he was doing.”
Raine: Um hmm. Yeah. Powerful. At the presentation I did at Mercer [University] and Kennesaw [State University], I said almost that exact thing when I
was talking about the ten things you can do to show you love what you do and who you do it for. One of them, I think it was #6 – or it might have been #1 –
is . . . I have a box of Band-Aids – you know I have five boxes in my drawer because the kids come in almost every other morning and ask me for a Band-
Aid. And I told them this story how this boy comes in and he shows me his arm and he asks for a Band-Aid. And I look at his cut and it’s at least two weeks
old and healed and its scarred. And I said, “What do you think he’s really asking me?” When I put that Band-Aid on, what is he really asking me? And they
all said, your attention, your time and your love. Exactly.
See I was trying to give them a list . . . they all got a bag and I gave them the ten things represented physically by whatever the object was. But I wanted them
to understand what it really was that we need to give the kids. I’d put that Band-Aid on and I would sing a little song to this kid . . . talk about his day . . . all of
the things that were important to me and off he would go. A smile on his face and hopefully armed to survive at least one more day . . . the big machine that
we call public education.
END OF HOUR ONE
Rick: I want to start our conversation by recapping what we’re here to do. What I’m curious about with this whole conversation is to explore why males . . .
men get into teaching elementary school. And what led me to that is just wondering about myself . . . well, we are such a minority and in the profession, and
for the men who do well in it especially – who experience some level of success by whatever measure – they have to do it by surviving in a primarily female environment. So, you go into it knowing that, statistically, probably 95 to 98% of your colleagues are going to be female. And, increasingly, maybe even your
principal is going to be female. And you’re going to go to school with almost all women if you know you’re going into elementary ed.
And so, to what extent does that experience shape the way you construct your gender identity or was it other things in your past that began to shape you so
you fit in better with that . . . if that makes sense. So are there things that condition us and lead us to feel comfortable in a primarily female environment in
what has become a primarily female profession. Uh . . . and yet succeed both with your colleague – fitting comfortably in that setting – and being successful
in what is usually considered a more nurturing, stereotypically female kind of profession.
So, just looking at the idea of how our identity in terms of gender is shaped by or determines our career choice and how we do and . . . . I think I probably
will stop because I’m just wandering now [both laughing].
Raine: No, I got a ton of ideas there.
Rick: So, anyway, a few things that came to mind when I started thinking about this a few years ago on my own was just . . . things like . . . when I grew up
my social circle was actually my younger sister and her friends. I had a lot of male friends but they lived farther from where I lived and my parents didn’t
really let me go there as an elementary child. I couldn’t go far distances to play with them or get chauffered everywhere. So I ended up by default playing
with my younger sister . . . four years younger than I am and some of her friends. And so I started to wonder well, to what extent did those interactions start to prepare me to work in a female environment? Did I start to hear the conversations and the priorities and the way girls think and . . . was that a factor? And
so, those kind of things . . . looking at some autobiographical factors and how my other interests and so on might have shaped some of that. And, rather than
just making it a singular, internal process, I thought it might be kind of interesting to hear somebody else who’s in the same situation. Someone who’s male,
who’s also experienced some success as a male elementary teacher and maybe draw each other out like that. So that’s my start.
Raine: I have plenty of feedback for that. I can answer why elementary. I can talk about how my gender, I think, how my identity was impacted by my
experiences at school, and why I teach the way I do now because of it. Is that kind of where we want to go?
Rick: Yeah. That sounds good.
Raine: I have lots of notes. So, when you started saying, “Why elementary?” “How did I find myself in the elementary situation?” I’m in the elementary
scene for a number of reasons. When I went to university – that third year I was telling you about when we teach . . . you get to observe kids through a
glass. It’s really quite funny. You go up in this observatory. The class is set up with this one-way glass. You know, it’s maybe a two-story room with a very
high ceiling. And the kids really don’t know this. It’s grade 1 or 2. And there’s this glass where you can go and observe and you basically just stand there
and you watch. Like the way, I think medical students do the same thing. So, you can picture that. So this is your first year where you’re still up there
viewing and you’re going to be in a classroom in a little while. It’s called your practicums . . . and your observing the kids.
So, I entered university thinking I was just going to be an artist. My dad was an artist and I just thought, “Oh, what a life this would be!” Not realizing that most
of us would be starving . . . so . . . So I took that first year elective just as something I thought might be interesting. “Oh, teaching, you know, my Dad’s been a teacher. I don’t think I’ll ever want to do what he’s done but let me check it out. So, I’m standing there with 15, 20 other students and my professor’s at the
end and we all have our logbooks . . . our notebooks . . . and we’re just told, “Go and watch and take some notes and see what you think. What are you
picking up on? What are you looking at? What are you seeing happen?” I was the only one standing there with . . . I couldn’t control my laughter. And I
was . . . I laughed the entire time hour and a half. And my professor came to me and said, you know, “I can’t wait to hear what’s going on.” And, he asked
me and I just said, “I can’t believe what these kids are doing! Did you see what this child just did? And I know why this child just did this.” And I just couldn’t
stop laughing. And I said, “This is just so entertaining and so fun to me and so humor filled. And I love the way the teacher’s responding to this. And he
said . . . he took me aside at the end of the course . . . and this really did change the way . . . he said, “You know, Raine, you’re in your first years of school
and you’re grades, your GPA isn’t high because you’ve obviously partied your first year.” But he said, “I know there’s a requirement of having a 3 point
something grade point average to get into this program. And I want you to know that I’m referring you, recommending you with a letter and my signature.
Because if I’ve ever seen anyone destined for the world of teaching, it’s you.” [Excursus 5 - A Subjective Warrant to Teach]
And I had admired this man, respected him. And what he said really wised me up and took me out of that mode of being lost and realizing maybe – like it or
not – there was a calling out there for me if I was picking up on some of the things that he was hoping kids would pick up on . . . students would pick up on.
So one of the reasons for sure was that I loved the energy of kids, especially on the elementary scene. I got to view the junior high and the high school as
well. But the energy in the elementary was just so fascinating to me. I guess ‘cause I felt like a kid. So that told me . . . that would be one of the reasons.
The second reason was . . . I think it’s a bit more powerful in the sense that my elementary school years for myself were both magical and “tragical” – magic
and tragic (laughing). I loved the teachers that were good – created a magical experience for me – and I loved it. And the teachers that weren’t good . . . it
became a very . . . .it was a devastating experience and I can tell you right now that most of those years with those teachers I spent crying. I can still vividly
remember putting my head down on my desk. Hiding my head with my arms around me . . . I know this position very well . . . crying with shame, crying
because I was, you know, belittled by a teacher. Crying because they would say . . . you know, when a teacher doesn’t like you, then all the kids don’t like
you. a powerful, powerful thing to learn as a kid. And it’s extremely powerful if you remember it as a teacher so you know not to do it yourself. And I know
most of the reasons I’m a teacher – the teacher I am today – is because I do a lot of the things my great teachers did and I refuse to do the things that my bad teachers did.
With those bad experiences and crying I knew I was a tender, soft-hearted person. A feminine trait . . . labeled at that time. So already the boys were starting
to see me as different. And the girls were drawn to me because I was sensitive and the boys pulled away because I was a crybaby and a sissy. And the more
the girls were attracted to me, the more I hung out with them. And pretty soon I started having conversations with the girls. I realized that girls are funny. And
there’s the humor that I love so much. And I was drawn to that. And I would come up out witty statements. The girls would laugh and the guys wouldn’t get it.
Maybe it’s ‘cause girls . . . I know they say that girls mature more than boys but the fact of the matter is the girls go my jokes, whether they were mature or
immature, the boys weren’t getting them. But the girls were. [Reflective Essay 3 - Girl/Friends not Girlfriends]
And so I remember very clearly walking around the schoolyard with girls almost all the time. I had a few guy friends that they also had the same traits that I
did. They were also friends with a lot of girls. They didn’t really understand the whole . . . gotta drive a truck and fit this whole . . . you know . . . this whole
description of what it means to be a Southern Albertan Canadian guy. And I remember in middle and high school even saying to girls . . . we would sit on the
steps where high school kids would sit and there was always a girl on each side of me and a couple behind me . . . and we would watch the guys pulling up
in their big four- wheel drive trucks and I would say to them, “Do I need that to define who I am?” I remember very frankly saying . . . and the girls laughing . . .
and I just said, “That just seems very idiotic to me that I have to have a truck that looks the same as everybody else’s truck.” You know, at that age level,
thinking that way, I knew that I was different.
You know, and I still grew up in construction. I still grew up as a farm boy. I pulled calves. I “A I’d”. I shoveled manure. I worked construction. I worked with the toughest of the toughest. But I still felt . . . and it doesn’t have anything to do with my sexuality even. I just knew even then that I was tune with a sensitive side. Whether we call that “the feminine” or not . . . you know . . . that’s up for argument. But I knew that was something I felt very comfortable and very safe with.
And as a teacher now I make sure that I never see a kid with their head on the desk crying. I refuse to see that happen. I also understand why some kids will
hang out with girls. But I also know that being a male in the elementary setting is very rare and it’s very much need. Because all of the boys that I teach are
attached to me . . . moreso than the girls. And I think it’s because . . . I’m not self-centered to think that it’s me and my personality . . . I just think that they
need a male role model – a positive one.
Rick: That reminded me of something that . . . back in our first conversation . . . I started thinking after you had said something kind of similar to that . . . and I
thought of my own model as an elementary teacher. So often the guys are hired ‘cause they’re the disciplinarian. You know, they’ll be better at discipline . . .
you know, put them with the 5th or 6th graders. That’s where they need more . . . where the guys need to see strong men. Some of that’s true but I wonder if
it’s not equally true that they start to see a male who can be all those things you just mentioned . . . that that’s not just as important. We need more men to
show that men can be compassionate, patient, sensitive, sad, tearful. Maybe that’s even the better reason that we need men in the classroom than because
they can whip those 5th grade boys into line or the boys will have some jock to relate to or something like that?
Raine: I agree with you. ‘Cause I think they have their whole lives to find those role models, and they’ll seek them out where they need them. They’ll find them
in their coaches or whatever. And I’ve always had that belief that if I feel like crying, then I’ll cry. I guess the benefit of all those years of shameful crying. You
know, teachers that I remember that they singled me out. I mean, I’m just being a baby about the whole thing. But now as an adult, when I go to a movie I
cry. And I feel so good about releasing . . . you know, a touching movie. And I’m with people who feel the same way. My male friends are as confident . . . and
I do say that that’s a confidence. That’s a courage . . . in knowing this. I know who I am and I’ll clap at the end of a movie and I teach my children the same
thing. I do.
Far be it . . . who are we to decide what is right or wrong to put in our classrooms outside of the curriculum. But I tell the kids that it’s okay to cry. And they see
me cry when we watch different movies through the year. We watch the Dr. King story. You know, these amazing stories that touch your soul. And they’ll see
me crying and they’ll ask me why. And I immediately tell them why and that there’s nothing to be ashamed of. And it’s amazing after that first time how much is learned. Because the next time it happens there’s no conversation and it’s amazing you can look over and see a few boys crying. And out in [name of school]
where my males grow up already knowing what a gun looks like and you understand what rape means, and all these things . . . and yet there they were crying
when I read some very powerful stories where I would cry by the end. The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein . . . I’m a marshmallow with that story. And they
would cry. They would ask why and even if they couldn’t completely comprehend it . . . they would understand that there was an emotional power to it.
I also tell them about the sexual stuff now . . . because now, after coming out . . . being comfortable with who I am . . . when children call each other a fag, you
know, or just a derogatory statement . . . I tell them immediately that there are people with alternative lifestyles everywhere, including their hip hop heroes,
and their basketball heroes. And I teach them that lesson right away because one of the people I dated was a football player who you would never know.
And, you know, I would never tell them who that person was but it’s so powerful when I tell them that some of your heroes and your idols have alternative
lifestyles. It’s not appropriate for you to use their sexuality in a negative way. And I’m very passionate about that. I’m not promoting but I’m clarifying you
can’t . . . you now, I say, “It’s just as bad as the ‘N’ word and all those things. And I put it into perspective . . . and I say if anything parents disagree with me
. . . at least understand that you can’t say that in my classroom. You can’t use that kind of language in my classroom. You can’t shout out anything like that.
That’s just where I’m coming from. And they respect that.
Rick: You mentioned something a little while ago that was . . . I was wondering with this whole issue about the confidence or strength, like to cry . . . being
around other men who have the confidence to do that . . . secure in doing that. And I wonder what role that might play in becoming a teacher. Because on a traditional college campus you have traditional male friends, typically, even though they might not be in class with you. And it would seem to me that it would
take a certain level of strength or confidence when you’re with your other macho friends who are going into business or law and whatever and their jocks . . .
and you say that, “I’m going to be a 1st grade teacher”. I’m not going to earn money – which defines men. My profession is not one that is highly respected –
which defines a man. You know, what you do defines you. So is there . . . what you do with that issue, I don’t know. I didn’t have that problem as much
because I went to a smaller religious institution that was primarily for people going into teaching or the ministry. So, almost every man on campus . . . my
friends were going to do the same thing I did. So I didn’t really confront that as an issue. And I don’t know . . . especially in the South here. I have fewer
males in my teacher ed. program than I did in the Midwest. So I didn’t know if that’s an issue for them or . . . I don’t know.
Raine: I think what you’re saying is very powerful because . . . even this morning with this new committee, this “scope and sequence” committee . . . I was
one of two male and there must have been fifty of us here. And I got there and I started thinking to myself. If these are the committees we have, then a huge
amount of our curriculum has been shaped by women. And . . . I don’t know how much of that has impacted the genders in our classrooms. But I know that
I’m always, you know, definitely the minority. Definitely. And that when I speak at these meetings people always turn because they hear the male voice. You
always get the heads turning. But when the women are speaking, you know, they don’t turn to see who’s that talking over there. And I think that my
perspective is unique in that sense.
I don’t think I was ever aware of the fact that I was . . . maybe it was because of the Canadian experience . . . I didn’t . . . I wasn’t ashamed . . . I didn’t think I
was unique going into the profession. I was aware that there wasn’t a lot of male teachers and that was told to me going through the program at the
university – “Oh, that’s great. We need more male teachers in the elementary environment.” I had a lot of great mentors who were males. My advisors were
males and they were grounded and their philosophies were excellent. And I still keep in touch with them today. And so I think I have that sort of confidence
behind me because they would say to me, “ You need to get in that classroom. You need to go teach and then you need to get out there teaching teachers.”
So to be told that in your first years of teaching really builds your self-esteem. And that gives you a lot of confidence.
I hung at university with the jocks. They were all on the teams so I knew I stood out because, you know, I had customized my jeans that I was wearing. And
then they actually got a kick out of it. They accepted me. I chose to hang out with that crowd in that section of the university where they would sit and hang
out. Because even though I was an artist, I didn’t really relate to the art crowd. Because they were way to eccentric for me, almost intentionally so. Whereas
jocks . . . if we’re going to talk groups . . . at least they seemed authentic because they were foolishly reckless but they were being themselves. If they said something stupid, they said it out of honesty. And, I liked that. It seemed fresh and real to me. And I liked the fact that they weren’t really judging me. They
let me sit with them. And I guess, in way, I was drawn to them because I was making up for all the isolation I had as an elementary kid . . . where I wasn’t the
jock. I couldn’t a lay-up. So I never made a basketball team. And I couldn’t, you know, all I could do was run. And so I think that made up for a lot.
And I think that when I’m teaching kids I look for those kids to see if there’s anyone who feels they don’t fit. And I make sure they know they do. The kids with
the bad hygiene, I make sure they instantly know . . . I make sure everyone around them knows they’re just as magnificent as those who have great hygiene.
And if I have to have a frank conversation with the class about it I will even. And it usually gets to that in 5th grade where the kids are saying, well, “That
person smells like urine.” Then you say, “Well, look, that’s because this is what’s happening in this person’s life and we need to look past that.” And I show
them everyday that I do. So I think a great deal of change in the way things are is just modeling it ourselves. Especially, the gender, like you said, being able
to cry in front of your kids.
Rick: I started to think, too, that maybe it’s not so much gender interactions that shape . . . like I said, my original thought was that I was around so many
women growing, I played with girls . . . that’s what helped me feel comfortable. But, hearing some of the things you say and I as started to think about . . . it
might . . . maybe the men who go into elementary teaching . . . it’s not so much that gender has been constructed in a different way as it has been just their
general identity . . . . In fact, the more I think about . . . you mentioned lots of forms of difference. Not only the athletic parts but the sensitivity . . . you know
some could be conceived as “female”, some are just different things.
I think of myself . . . rather than feminine characteristics I so almost more . . . geeky, child-like tendencies. I had no desire to grow up. I was still playing with
stuff in middle school that I never would have told my friends I was playing with – my little Matchbox cars or G.I. Joes . . .
Raine: Yep. Yep.
Rick: . . . my toy soldiers, or whatever I was doing. And I would find one or two friends that were still into that and we would just kind of secretly . . .
Raine: Oh yeah. [Both laughing]
Rick: Speaking of coming out . . . I never came “out” that way.
Raine: Um hmm. [laughing]
Rick: I would never have had the courage to say, “Oh yeah, I’m going home to play with my soldiers or my cars” when I was 8th grade. I think I finally forcibly
put those things aside in high school because I just go busy, not because I had the desire to play with my toys anymore.
Raine: Right.
Rick: So that kind of thing. I had strange tastes in music.
Raine: Yep.
Rick: I was listening to easy listening-type music that my parents listened to.
Raine: Yep.
Rick: I think I was more familiar with Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra and show tunes and movie soundtracks than I was with Led Zeppelin or Black Sabbath or whoever would have been . . . In fact I was behind most . . . and I chose to do it. It wasn’t like my parents would let me. I just chose to keep listening to those
things. So the more I think about it maybe it was more just . . . like you said . . . when you laughed the whole time you were watching the kids. I could see that
in myself. I didn’t have that experience but I’m not one of people who always wanted to be a teacher. I had no intention . . . I never thought of teaching until
maybe second, third year of college. It never even crossed my mind . . . that I remember at least. But I do remember feeling comfortable with childlike . . . I
didn’t want to grow up. And this was going to be a good way
Raine: Yep.
Rick: . . . to grow up.
Raine: Yep.
Rick: And not in the sense that I always wanted to be their buddy and goof off with them and say, “Let’s hang out.”
Raine: Yeah. You knew the line.
Rick: Yeah. It’s the idea that there was some part of me that wouldn’t have to grow up because I could be energized by the kids, I could watch them, I could
be a little bit silly, I could make them laugh. And at least for those few hours each day, I could be sort of like a kid . . . I could still be in touch with the kid part
in me. You know, then there’s still part of me that doesn’t want to grow up. I still don’t want to admit I’m the age I am. So maybe it’s more that than gender.
Raine: I think what’s amazing to me is every time I talk with you is that . . . and it’s so refreshing . . . we have so much in common . . . is that our experiences
growing up and I’m, you know, and I ended up being [slight pause] gay and you’re not. [Both laughing]. And that’s really great for me . . . your lifestyle . . .
because it brings another dimension of normality into my own identity. And I’m selfish to say that but it makes me feel that, “Yeah, you know, what if all those
things were also not necessarily because I was gay.” ‘Cause I didn’t even know I was at that time. I just knew that I liked fun things. I liked to laugh. I loved
the youthfulness.
I remember my first five years of teaching. I mean . . . I saw a lot of what was wrong with public education before I got in the classroom and I knew from my experiences in high school I remember thinking, “This is the wrong way to teach. This is the wrong way to look at this and this is the wrong way to help kids.
We’re processing kids, we’re not teaching kids. So when I got in the classroom . . . Canada’s such a free environment for teaching you can do whatever you
want. The first thing I said was, “I’m making this culture about the kids.” So, there’s always this debate about respect and your hat on, your hat off kind of thing.
So, the good thing about my principals were that they were open-minded. So I told them the very first day I walked in the school was that I was going to be
allowing the boys in my room to wear their hats and that they would have to choose their hats properly according to their personalities and that they would
take their hats off at certain times such as singing, “Oh, Canada” and entering a restaurant, etcetera. The principals were in complete support of this.
If you walked into my classroom those first five years especially you would see me wearing a hat, and (one word unclear) clothes and all the boys in my room wearing hats and girls if they had hats they wanted to wear that day. And they were always sports teams at the time and they were very proud of it. But what
was interesting was that was when teachers started to come and watch my class and [one word unclear] what happened. A lot of . . . the word spread that
great things were happening in the classroom and they came to observe my classroom. And I realize now how amazing that was. At the time I didn’t think I
was doing anything extraordinary. I knew what I was doing. What was behind all that was I was trying to create a self-esteem in the kids and a sense of pride
and love for the classroom. They had to bring their own jersey, anything they loved, and we just plastered the walls in the classroom with everything the boys
loved and everything the girls loved. Their home. They were far more likely to own it and not abuse it. We painted the room, we painted the bath tub . . .
everything. The kids wore their hats.
So when the teachers came to ask about that . . . they’d always pick up on that right away. “Oh, you’re the teacher who teaches with his hat on.” And I’d say,
“Well, that’s great but that’s the first thing you’d know about me. Now stay for the day and I bet you you leave with a different perspective.” And they would.
They would say, “When we came in we thought you were one of the kids. You have that youthful look. But then when we watched you had it set up in a way
that the classroom can run itself whether you’re in the room or not.” And I’d say, “Exactly.” This was . . . you’d work until Christmas to get it to happen and
that’s what happened every year. The kids governed themselves. They created their rules . . . how to help each other. They directed their learning. All of that.
They wore their hats and they were the most respectful, loving kids you’d ever meet. Because I showed that respect . . . I believed and I believe it now . . .
it’s earned, not demanded.
And the old school folks that I went through demanded it and didn’t earn from me. And so I resented a great deal of my teachers because they demanded me
to respect them and gave me no reason to. They would just tell me . . . especially the male teachers . . . they thought if I intimidate you . . . back then, in those
days, the strap was legal . . . If I give you the strap you will respect me. And it backfired because I resented any of those kinds of teachers. I only respected
the teachers who earned my respect, who knew I existed and accepted me for who I was.
Rick: It’s interesting how you described with the hats . . . how we were both going towards the same thing in an entirely different direction. Because I . . . well,
I used to dress up pretty much for school. I just like it. I like wearing ties. I like the whole thing. And so often I’d wear a sport coat . . . and we didn’t have that requirement . . . you’d have to dress nice but the school didn’t have a policy about that. And I remembered at one point . . . I was teaching 5th grade at the
time . . . and the kids said, “Mr. Breault” or “Mr. B.” . . . Mr. B why do you always get so dressed up. I was right out of school so I was my early 20s and I tried
to dress kind of sharp and stylish, too. It wasn’t just teacher-y dress-up.
Raine: Right. Right. [Both laughing]
Rick: And I said, “No. No, I don’t have to. I just like it. I like putting stuff together. I like looking at the stuff in the morning and deciding. And then I respect the
job. You know, I think this is an important thing I do and I want you to see that I care enough to do this everyday. So I remember . . . .
[Tape stopped without our noticing it. I finished the story related how the girls then decided they wanted a “dress up” day every Friday. They began wearing their “Sunday” clothes and then some of the boys started wearing dress clothes and ties – all of their choosing. It didn’t last a long time but enough to make a point and have some fun]
[Also during the break in recording: We discussed the difficulty parents and peers had in constructing our gender identify. Since we were both young, single, somewhat attractive, well-dressed, sensitive men who enjoyed cultural activities, were never seen with a girlfriend (Rick by choice to keep his private live
separate) that we were probably gay. Rick had heard third hand “scuttlebutt” to that effect. On the other hand, there were also rumors that Rick was having
affairs with half the mothers in his class (also untrue) and several mothers and female teachers “fell in love” with Raine.]
Raine: So that’s interesting to see that people have the same parallels regardless.
Rick: Um hmm. And I think that . . . I don’t know where your first teaching was . . . but I know with mine . . . it was a pretty working class . . . kind of like the
fireman dad you were talking about . . . lots of police and lots of fireman. This particular area of Chicago, they had to live of Chicago if you had those jobs.
But it was . . . so they were living in the farthest area you could that was still white – ‘cause there was a lot of racism, too. So they technically lived in Chicago
but they wanted to get out where the white folks were.
Raine: Wow.
Rick: So, very blue collar . . . well, fireman, policeman, blue collar-kind of thing and lived up to a lot of the other stereotypes, too. So, I think when a lot of the
moms found a man who was well-educated, liked to talk . . . .
Raine: Um hmm. Oh yeah.
Rick: Could share things . . . you know . . .
Raine: Yes.
Rick: that’s one of those things that become . . . um . . . yeah, like you said, they either start to fall in love or think you’re gay and it’s safe. I don’t know.
Raine: Yeah. I think, looking back now at the reaction that everyone had to me when I came out ten years later. I think they all thought that. He’s safe. Because nobody acted with surprise. No one reacted with surprise. I actually almost wanted to write them back and say, You know, are you sure you know what I’m
saying. I’m not saying that I’m extremely happy. That’s not the kind of gay I’m talking about. But they understood and they had moved on. I think they had all
pretty much figured it out within the year that they knew me, you know, that I had their children. ‘Cause they made sure I had the next child and the next. I had
to teach full families of children. They would request my class. I had the largest class every year . . . every single year. And my principal would tell me that.
“We’ve got to do something about this parent requesting thing because everyone’s requesting you and we can’t put everyone in your room. It was an
incredible complement to me but at the same time I wanted to say to them, “I’m not doing anything extraordinary. I’m doing what all the things that might
teachers didn’t do . . . which I knew they needed to do
Rick: [laughing]
Raine: Right? for me . . . .when I was a kid. Truly. I really think that if we said in our teacher training courses, take a moment to sit down and right down all the
bad things that happened to you as a result of your teachers – not your peer group – what they could have done to protect you from those things. And now
let’s make sure you don’t do those things as an educator. I think that’s . . . I mean it’s one thing to say, “Do all the great things” but we’re not always so great
at picking all the great things. But we do know when something bad happens to us as kids. We feel it.
Rick: Maybe that’s connected to what we both said about hanging on to the child-like-ness in ourselves. When you’re still in touch with that as an adult maybe
you’re more sensitive to what the kids want and need? You’re still sort of that kid yourself. You haven’t put it away.
Raine: Yeah.
Rick: So you pick up on that quicker.
Raine: I had a colleague call me, Peter Pan. Actually many of them called me that after my sixth year of teaching. And I had colleague problems, too. I had a colleague who fell in love with me. I had to tell that I just was involved with someone else. Of course, that’s all I could come up with at the time. But, you know,
years later, she said to me, “You were always this Peter Pan.” And I said, “Maybe that’s what appealed to you and, you know, what made you fall in love with
me was just that sense of youthfulness.” And I wish I could have told her then, well look, I’m youthful because I’ve never had an intimate moment with
anyone. I’m still a virgin. Or I’m still naïve. I haven’t been burned by love. I haven’t been weathered by love, by betrayal or heartbreak. I really did, up until I
came out I looked like a teenager. I had not a wrinkle on my face. I never cried the tears that broken- hearted people cry when their true love leaves them . . .
and all the things that everyone goes through. I was exempt.
Rick: Hmm?
Raine: I mean, it didn’t happen until I was 32. And in one year I knew . . . I knew I aged. I really knew.
Rick: I wonder if that’s not a parallel then. Because I had one serious girlfriend right at the end of high school that went into college a little bit . . . as serious
as you can be at that age. But other than that I didn’t really date much, I didn’t . . . you know few girls that I went out with once or twice just to go to a movie
or a concert for the fun of it. And I wonder if that’s true that you maintain child-like connection when you haven’t had to confront all those other things as
much.
Raine: I was quite comfortable all those years not worrying about how somebody felt about me on that level. But when you fall in love with somebody you
suddenly give away a part of you that you didn’t know you could give away and you become dependent on the validation [several words unclear] everything. Suddenly you’re not in control. I realized suddenly that that’s one thing I could never control. I couldn’t make someone love me. I couldn’t make someone
faithful. You know, I couldn’t know what someone was thinking in that regard. Sometimes I wished that I’d never experienced it and other times I’m thankful
that I did. But I know that it made me the teacher I am today ‘cause I had nothing else to worry about or to indulge in outside of the professional. So it
consumed me.
Rick: Did that seem to translate then to needing those things from the kids? Or did it . . .
Raine: You know, I think about it now ‘cause now that . . . you know, after coming out and having a relationship with an adult versus, you know, this student,
friendly . . . you know how that innocent kind of love fills the void. Then I thought about it, you know, I was just saying to a friend . . . a colleague of mine on
the phone and I said, “You know, if I never find a partner in life, I would be quite happy to adopt two kids and that kind of love will very easily compensate.
Because I think now in my life it’s more about . . . I need a conduit to release all of this love that I have. I need two kids, one kid or a best friend. It doesn’t
matter as long as we have somewhere to put our love, our kindness. I’ve lived that way my whole life. I’ve done nothing but help people because it feels like
it’s . . . maybe it just feels right, that it’s filling a need in me. And I can’t bet at all that I’ll have somebody in my life as a partner. It’s very difficult. I have ten
percent of the population to choose from and then out of that 10%, two percent maybe are my flavor and my style and my, you know, kind of my compatibility.
So then I have to think, well, how else can I fulfill this need in me. Not to be loved ‘cause I’ve been loved and I love myself. But, to love somebody else.
Rick: I wonder if that’s a factor for men who choose teaching? ‘Cause it’s like . . . not an exact way that you were saying but, now that I think about it . . . I mean there’s . . . I certainly have a . . . as a typical as I am in some ways I’m still a typical guy with some aspects of commitment . . . superficial . . . okay, that’s
enough . . . .
Raine: Yeah, yeah. [laughing]
Rick: And I wonder if in some ways . . .like, you see people . . . hmm? . . . if having the kids, my students as that outlet was a pretty safe one because I could
just walk away from it. As committed as I was to them I didn’t have a big stake in them loving me back in the same way. Yeah, their affirmation was always a
really great thing and I’d much rather have them like me than not but you could still walk away at the end of the day and know that they’re home with their
parents. [quick laugh] That I could love them all I wanted, do all the stuff with them in class and all that, but ultimately they’ll be gone after a year. And you
hope that you had some lasting influence but if you didn’t it’s not like a spouse or some other meaningful partner . . . you’re really in it for the long term. You
know, that emotion is much more reciprocal. It has to be. And so maybe guys . . . it is a safe way to release some of your affection, your love, your devotion
. . . so you choose to work in that kind of setting because you can show all those things and really be out there but then pull back and . . . your lifetime
commitment is to teaching but not to any child or any group of children because they’ll be gone and so will you. You move on.
Raine: Right. Exactly.
Rick: So maybe in that way teaching can be a real male thing . . . lots of short term commitments . . .
Raine: Short term . . . perfect for the males [laughing]
Rick: Or if you’re in a departmentalized setting then you even have a serial monogamy going on.
Raine: Yeah [both laughing]
Rick: I’ll be with this class now they go away and next year they’re all gone. So maybe teaching is a more male thing than I realized.
Raine: I think that’s true. ‘Cause I have those connections in Africa and Thailand, Canada and here. You [one or two words unclear] each year. And also
our children grow up and leave. My sister’s going through that now. She’s said I’m loving absolutely every minute of every day with my four-year-old and
my 8- month old, because I know it’s not going to last forever. One day they will leave this house. And I guess every relationship evolves like that.
And I also know . . . and I have to speak to the stereotype, but it’s true. If there’s a stereotype, then there must be something going on. And if you look at
South Park [the animated socially satirical television show]. They have a character named Mr. Garrison, who is the gay elementary teacher. The male, gay elementary teacher. He’s in there because that’s . . . I believe it . . . I’ve met a ton of gay, male African-American teachers in the city. We can tell each other.
And I think that the elementary. . . the gay men who want to be teachers choose elementary because it feels safe for them.
Rick: Um hmm.
Raine: I loved junior high and high school and college, too. I loved it. I liked them all so I can’t say that’s why I chose elementary because it’s safe. It’s not
about safety for me. I’m teaching in a very dangerous urban school.
Rick: Right.
Raine: Where people leave in their second month of teaching. So that’s not an issue for me. I love that. I love that the kids have a vast amount of needs. And
I love being able to help them and feel like I am. For me, I think it’s that. But I do know that a lot of men that are gay go there because it’s safe. They feel
safe around their women colleagues. They feel safe to be themselves like that. And they feel safe around their kids because they know that the little ones
are not as quick to pick up on it and call them on it or hurt their feelings for whatever reasons. I was never called out, not even by the middle school and high
school kids. And the girls had crushes on me and no one ever thought. And even now, kids see that I don’t have a girlfriend but they just imagine that there
is one. They just don’t want to see me in any other role. And I guess in ten years, just like in Canada, when if they discover that I am, perhaps that will give
them a new . . . they’ll have to revisit their paradigms about what being gay is. And they’ll say, that “Wait, Mr. Hackler was gay and he wasn’t all of these
things that I have been raised . . . and the media has taught me to laugh at and ridicule . . . you know, the “Will and Grace” [referring to recent sitcom about
a gay man living with a straight female roommate] kind of stuff. You know, that it isn’t all that.
A football player came out about eight years ago maybe, maybe it was a little later than that. And I was really excited about it. He was Hawaiian . . . Hawaiian descent and I read the article about a restaurant with his partner. And I thought, boy, I wish more people in those kind of roles -- the athletes that kids love,
the hip hop artists – would do that. Because it would give all these kids who are gay -- and they know in elementary that they are -- it would give them that confidence. At least the knowingness that they’re okay. They’re not freaks. That they’re going to make it.
Rick: And I think the power of even one role model can do that. ‘Cause . . . now . . . clearly my situation isn’t the same as that but I remember . . . I jotted
down a name as you were talking . . . something you said about the mentors you had. And I remembered I had the husband of one of my cousins . . . my
family’s pretty close . . . so I spent a lot of time with him. But he was an elementary school teacher. I had met him just when I was started becoming a runner,
too in high school in cross-country and track and he was also a really good runner. I was . . . whatever . . . 14 or 15, whatever you are when you start high
school . . . maybe 14. And as I got older and saw that he was an elementary teacher . . . he was also really bright, just in every sense of the word a very
intelligent person – which was a long way from most of the stereotypes of elementary teachers.
Raine: Yeah.
Rick: A real intellectual, a good athlete. And I remember him being . . . not so much a role model of how to teach but the idea that it made it okay . . . that if
Bill was pretty cool, a good sense of humor, very intelligent, a good athlete and I respected him . . . then that was almost enough to me to think, “Oh, I can be intelligent, an athlete . . . whatever . . . and be a teacher. And I’d say he’s the only model . . . I didn’t have any male teachers in elementary school myself or
anything like that. So I could picture then . . . like you said . . . that maybe even more extreme in that sense of a gay man . . . .
Raine: Right.
Rick: Wow this really strong, powerful, famous jock . . . but, yet, most of them are too afraid, for whatever reason, to do that.
Raine: Fear is a big part of it. You’re right.
Rick: You just need one person to say it’s okay.
Raine: Yeah.
Rick: You’re not alone. And for me it was that one guy . . . well, an elementary teacher might be okay. You can still be all those other things you want and be
a teacher. And so you can picture with gay identity or even just kids who are different in some way.
Raine: Yeah . . . who just don’t fit that norm. I agree with you. I think that having that confidence as a kid . . . it really impacts you when you grew up. Before
I knew my identity sexually I knew that I was different mentally. I just knew I didn’t believe in half of the ways we were teaching. I didn’t believe . . . I didn’t
believe in the one-size-fits-all kind of philosophy. And then I [several words were unclear]. You know I didn’t agree with the standardized test and it came in
just as were exiting, so we were the pilot group. So we rebelled and made sure we got zeroes on all the tests. We didn’t agree with it at the time. We said, if
you want to know who we are, come ask our teacher. Come and see what we do with our projects. You know we just believed that.
And I think that’s driven a lot of what I do . . . how I teach even now. You really want to know how the kids in your state and your country are doing then come
and ask their teachers. Come and sit down and have a conversation. If you really, truly care, and you really don’t want to leave a child behind, come and
meet each child. Because you will leave them behind if you just talk about numbers. Because you’ll never know who the kids are and where they’re at if you
look at them as numbers. You will never know.
How does the world understand what my kids deal with in urban . . . you know, where one of my students had to come one day telling me that her mom
wanted her to, you know, urinate in a cup for her mom to pass a drug test. I mean that’s just [several words unclear because of background noise] that her
brother was, you know, selling cocaine and she had to hide in her bedroom with the door locked because his friends wanted to rape her. She’s 11. How does
the state know that story from a standardized test score? Does that really matter to that little girl when she’s staying in my room every day ‘til 7:00 ‘cause she
doesn’t want to go home. Until we finally find out why. And she knows that she could be beaten to death if she tells me. And yet she broke down and told me.
And then we saved her. We pulled her out of that house and then we had to do . . . one of those things we had to do. She would crawl out the window
because her brother and his friends would break the door down. How does “No Child Left Behind” address that?
You know . . . I could feel so [a few words unclear]. . . I could stay away from those conversations. We don’t want to know about that. We don’t want to know
that’s happening. The fact of the matter is if we really care about kids we’re going to care about that happening. I don’t care what’s happening in Buckhead
[a very affluent area of Atlanta], ‘cause Buckhead’s going to be fine. They’re going to be absolutely fine. They might have to worry about an Armani versus
a Gucci purse or set of shoes. But my kids are worried about life or death! What an entirely different curriculum.
Rick: Yep. Yet the higher pressure is put on them in some ways. As if they even care about that. Why on earth would you care about your test score?
Raine: Going back to being a male in the elementary school . . . I do know that I am very cognizant of how I act in front of the guys. I make sure that I show
them that men can be also very caring, understanding and quiet . . . peaceful people. Because a lot of the men . . . role models they have are very violent, aggressive, no-nonsense kind of . . . you know . . . and I’ve witnessed . . . They will not hesitate to beat them and discipline them in a physical sense for the
smallest thing . . . and shout at them. And they see all that anger and aggression and I want them to see that men can also be very peaceful, patient beings.
They can be quiet and giving. So when those boys come in the room everyday to get a piece of food off my desk and to share with me their morning, that’s
exactly how I come to them. I speak very softly and very calmly . . . “How are you? What’s happening?” “How was your night?” “How do you feel today?”
And they just open up to you. And I want them to see that that can be a consistent thing. I don’t know how the chain will ever be broken. I just that I can try
my best to provide a model. Maybe when they’re adults they can dig into their memories and remember that. I don’t know if they will.
I don’t know even if who I am is based on a model I had in elementary school or if it’s my father. I never saw him cry so it can’t be truly that. ‘Cause I didn’t
see him cry. He wasn’t a really tough, aggressive . . . he was a Gandhi. I always describe my dad as a Gandhi type of man . . . a very quiet, humble man and
all the kids loved him. And he never really shouted at us growing up. And I didn’t see him cry but I also didn’t see him as being a cold man at all. He was an
artist . . . but he is a scientist as well. I don’t know where the model came from. I don’t know why I am really who I am.
Rick: Yeah. There are going to be dimensions of this that you just can’t tease out. Yeah. Some of it I can picture that . . . I didn’t grow up with a lot of the
male stuff because my dad was not a big sports fan. I literally had never seen a football game. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a whole football game. He liked
baseball. We did watch baseball, the Cubs and all. But . . . so there wasn’t that kind of stuff and . . . he honored the . . . like, he would go to the symphony
concerts with us and he went to church with us. So a lot of those “un-male” things, he did. So in that way . . . some of those things would come from him as
a model. He was actually the more unconditional love person than my mom was. You know, he wasn’t the macho dad driving you to be successful. If I
didn’t succeed at things he would be, “Oh, that’s okay if you didn’t . . .”. Where my mom was more the conditional love person. So I guess some of that I’d
have to attribute . . . whatever atypical male traits that might have led to my elementary choice as being acceptable could have come . . . there’s never . . .
both of my parents were proud of that decision. There was absolutely no . . . “Fine, hey, that’s a cool thing to be”.
Raine: Mine, too.
Rick: Making money was not a big . . . money was just not an issue for our family. If I made lots of money that would be fine but whatever I wanted to do
would have been okay. I wasn’t under those typically male kind of pressures. But yet, there’s plenty that aren’t my Dad or my Mom, so I don’t know. I think a
lot of it I’d have to say was luck . . . in that I had friends, male friends, who I could be geeky with . . . you know, I didn’t have to fall into a lot of the stuff. Yet,
I was also a good enough jock . . .
Raine: Okay, see, that’s where I’m different.
Rick: . . . that I fit in with . . . I was a good runner in high school which wasn’t football or basketball but at least . . .
Raine: You were still an athlete.
Rick: Yeah. I could go in those crowds . . . even though I didn’t like that group as much . . . we didn’t party together or any of that kind of thing but it was
okay. I had my in with them. So in that way . . . plus it gave me a lot of outs that I didn’t have to . . . I wasn’t as tempted to . . . I could say no to drugs and
that easier. Because, “Oh, well, Rick’s a jock.” And that was pretty good. I could say, “Oh, well, I got a race tomorrow” and so lots of easy outs for peer
pressure that some guys weren’t as lucky to have. You know that, peer pressure was a bigger issue.
Raine: I remember that. I remember that pressure. And for me I didn’t have that outlet so I remember going, “Oh God just get me through this. It won’t
matter at university. It’s too big. No one will even notice you there.” But I remember thinking that over and over again. Get me through this. Just get through
it and then I’ll be free. And it was. It’s exactly that at university. I was not . . . I didn’t matter and I was quite happy about that. Maybe I . . . maybe when I got
that job in a school . . . maybe I said, “You know, now let me repair.” Metaphorically, let me revisit who I was as a kid and let me repair all that in these kids.
And maybe, you know, in an extended way I’m repairing myself. Sewing up some wounds that never quite healed. You never know. If that’s the case then
I should’ve stopped doing that years ago.
Going back to what you were saying . . . I think it’s also just that conduit of being able to release the passion and love that we have. For being alive. And for
being a human being. Which, you know, we have that ability. Maybe ‘cause I never had an opportunity for 32 years . . . you know, everything just feels right.
Kids are so easy to love. I am drawn to the worst kids in our school ‘cause they’re so easy to impact and they’re angels when they’re with me. And I know why. Because they respond to good . . . good, unconditional validation . . . and they see it. They see it for what it is. They know when you’re truly listening to them
and when you’re not. When you bring a coat and you give it to them, they remember and they wear it. “This person cares about me.”
Rick: Yeah, I try to tell that . . . the students I have don’t quite get the whole idea that you’re creating a . . . a world for them to live in. I say that’s more
important than the stuff you teach.
Raine: Wow. Yeah.
Rick: I want them to deliberately create that world because you’re going to be with them more than their parents . . . in a lot of the kid’s cases . . . and if you
think that they’re going to leave you after that much not being different people, you’re wrong. So what kind of people do you want them to be? But, listening
and knowing that you’ve been listened to . . . I try to say what a difference it makes when they come and say, “Oh yeah, Mr. B.” “Oh yeah, good ahead, it’s
right over there” [pointing without looking up from the desk] Or if I say “What?” You know, turn around, put the pencil down and look at them. That one thing! Especially for kids who don’t get it at home. For some, eh, it won’t make a difference. But the ones that
Raine: Yep.
Rick: . . . “He actually turned around, looked at me” . . .
Raine: Yep.
Rick: . . . “He stopped what he was doing. What he’s doing wasn’t important or at least I was more important at that moment. I was more important than what
he was doing.”
Raine: Um hmm. Yeah. Powerful. At the presentation I did at Mercer [University] and Kennesaw [State University], I said almost that exact thing when I
was talking about the ten things you can do to show you love what you do and who you do it for. One of them, I think it was #6 – or it might have been #1 –
is . . . I have a box of Band-Aids – you know I have five boxes in my drawer because the kids come in almost every other morning and ask me for a Band-
Aid. And I told them this story how this boy comes in and he shows me his arm and he asks for a Band-Aid. And I look at his cut and it’s at least two weeks
old and healed and its scarred. And I said, “What do you think he’s really asking me?” When I put that Band-Aid on, what is he really asking me? And they
all said, your attention, your time and your love. Exactly.
See I was trying to give them a list . . . they all got a bag and I gave them the ten things represented physically by whatever the object was. But I wanted them
to understand what it really was that we need to give the kids. I’d put that Band-Aid on and I would sing a little song to this kid . . . talk about his day . . . all of
the things that were important to me and off he would go. A smile on his face and hopefully armed to survive at least one more day . . . the big machine that
we call public education.
END OF HOUR ONE